Does the Bible Support Christian Rock?-A quick answer to so called "Christian Rockers" AND QUICK ANSWERS TO JOHN!
By John Beardsley REFUTED BY TOM LORIMER!
I would like to start off this time! I just want to establish some basic rules for hermeneutics (scripture interpretation):
ØThe first principle is - A text, apart from its context, is merely a pretext for a proof-text.
ØThe second principle is- always judge scripture with scripture.
ØThird, never misquote scriptures
ØNumber 4, we may not know what a text means, but we usually know what it doesn't mean.
ØAnd the most important thing for the child of God- when approaching the scripture, do not read what you believe, but believe what you read.
If we follow these principles punctuated with a lot of prayer, we are pretty sure not to fall into heresy of any sort! With this in mind, let us check if John's references support his point or not!
"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Colossians 3:15-16; also refer to Ephesians )
Emphasis "...psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts..." Does this approve or license Christian Rock? Definitely not.
OK then. I checked Ephesians 5:19 as per your suggestion, and I found out that the text speaks not for a musical style, but rather they give precepts for the believer in regards to their SPEECH!
The context determines the meaning of the text. With its constant warnings against things like
-MENTIONING UNFRUITFUL WORKS OF DARKNESS.
I hereby find John guilty of violating Hermeneutical principle #1 (and 2)!
1 Corinthians 7:1 "Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: [It is] good for a man not to touch a woman."
There is positively no way to escape this verse on the issue of body surfing!
There is also NO WAY to scripturally justify marriage, (If you build a doctrine on this ONE VERSE!)! When will we ever learn that
A text, apart from its context, is merely a pretext for a proof-text?
-OK, this verse refers to MARRIAGE!
-V26 gives us a time-scale for this. 'FOR THIS PRESENT DISTRESS!
-I'm sure you would agree that marriage is a good thing? Why was Paul forbidding it? From your single verse we would never know.
-This single verse seemingly rules out any contact between a man and a woman. Does this mean I cannot hug my best friends (because they happen to be female)? We may not know what a text means, but we usually know what it doesn't mean!
II Corinthians "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"
This SINGLE VERSE again is taken out of context and misrepresented. Simply put; the correct interpretation of this verse PROHIBITS CLOSE RELATIONSHIPS with unsaved people!
Romans 12:1 - 2 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
These verses demonstrate we are NOT to conform to the world, exactly opposite of what C-rock is teaching.
Christian Rock is doing a wonderful job of exhibiting non-conformity to the World through their lyrics which teach Godly life principles and preach the Gospel. Most commonly critics use this verse built entirely on the assumption that Christian rock is ubiquitously worldly. The truth is that these verses apply not to outward appearances, but to inward mind renewal. See my article on "stinkin' thinkin'" for detail on how to do this!
1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"
Matthew 28:19-20 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."
These verses testify against c-rockers lack of a gospel message even saying they are NOT at the concerts to preach. Not to mention where in Bible does it say to use music as the way to preach? It doesn't, it's in the Bible to build each other up!
1)There is not a lack of a gospel message per se in Christian Rock music or concerts
2)The Bible actually does advocate music as a means of evangelism! Want proof? OK, see Psalm 40v3! 2 Timothy 4:2 "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."
This is what folks like myself are doing are best to do, doctrine is a foreign idea in c-rock because they are adapting to the world's way of thinking.
Nope! Wrong again!
1)This is a pastoral admonition.
2)Just because the 'reprove, rebuke, exhort' doesn't happen to include your vitriolic rantings on your site, does not invalidate it!
3)Quite a lot of CCM is apologetics but against people and organisations like yourself John!
2 Timothy -16 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."
OK, I fail to see the relevance of this here!
Matthew - 20 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
The old 'fruit argument' again! OK let's get this clear - UNLESS YOU CAN PROVE THAT THE FRUIT OF C-ROCK IS 'REBELLION', YOU HAVE NO POINT using these verses.
Galatians - 24 "Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
And where are the spiritual fruits of the C-rock?! They are not evident in the concerts they claim are explicitly "Christian." This of itself should be enough to scare away a teen trying to walk honestly according to scriptures.
Um, no John, there are no murders and drunkenness and such like in C-Rock concerts! Just because Christian Rock appeals to your 'flesh' does not men it is fleshly! You just have an overactive conscience! You are a 'weaker brother' according to Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8! The scriptural command for you is to stay away from the music; and the scriptural thing for me is to enjoy my music without parading and flaunting my liberty in front of you! The utterances of c-rock are vain babblings at best and are often blasphemous or heretical.
Thanks for all this proof John! Seriously, though, if ever proof were needed it is here! In fact you fling around charges of heresy! Do you know how serious of a charge this is? I am yet to hear a single C-rock song that outrightly denies a cardinal Christian belief such as the virgin birth, the trinity, or Salvation by grace!
Christian rockers are clearly "cozying-up" to the world and its ways, opposite of Romans 12:1-2 and other verses quoted.
No they're not! They are exposing the worldly lifestyle for the empty, sham it is! Ain't that good?
They often sing the world's songs, mimmic the world's dress style, have lyrics which often make no sense like their secular counterparts, and behave like the unsaved rockers!
OK, John kind of has a point when it comes to the dress and lyrics, but the bit about the behaviour requires documentation!
The fast growth of Christian rock should sound the alarm bells for parents, pastors and peachers who are seeking to follow scriptures and protect their children!
Are you jealous of its fast growth or something?
We need to beware of the arguments presented by the likes of c-rockers as they attempt (maybe unintentionally) to undermine parental authority
No, no, no, they attempt to aid parental authority by teaching biblical life-principles!
introducing the seductive heresy
Again with the 'heresy'! When something disagrees with you it becomes heretical!
of "Christian Rock."
The following answers the so-called "cheap shots" we are making of c-rock as accused by the leader of the c-rock group "Bride."
Here's a quote from the site: - (Go to the website for the entire article) (It makes for a good study in scripture, because God, NO MAN made these statements, here the harmony of scripture is evident)
THIS QUESTION- "IS IT RIGHT TO JUDGE?" is one that puzzles many sincere Christians. A careful and open minded study of the Bible makes it clear that concerning certain vital matters, it is not only right but a positive duty to judge.
This raises an improtant theological question, which is; WHAT are we to judge. The word error here simply won't do! It is right to judge fruits and evaluate the relevant ministry by the fruits. My disagreement comes when John judges the c-rock fans and artists! How can he discuss the motives without seeing into the hearts of the people he judges?!
Many do not know that the Scripture commands us to judge. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded, "Judge righteous judgment" (John ).
The first principle of interpretation is - A text, apart from its context, is merely a pretext for a proof-text. The context in this case is; people were Judging Jesus according to what they saw with their eyes. Jesus Challenged this. Therefore, this verse relates to how we look at JESUS!
He told a man, "Thou hast rightly judged" (Luke ).
This is so out of context that it has got to be seen to be believed
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged
To others, our Lord asked, "Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?" (Luke 12:57).
Read this along with the next two verses as it applies to MAKING PEACE WITH YOUR ADVERSARY! The exact opposite of what John is doing here!!!!!!
The Apostle Paul wrote, "I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say" (1 Corinthians ).
His 'lyrics' so to speak! Paul often wrote in popular idiom of the day and preached in accord with the philosophy to the Stoics and Epicurians in order that he may bring the Gospel to them in Acts 17.
Again, Paul declared, "He that is spiritual judgeth all things" (1 Corinthians ). It is our positive duty to judge.
From the context, the passage means discernment in wisdom rather than Judging others! Ask yourself this; are the C-rockers spiritual? YES! Can you judge them? NO! VERSE 15! 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
False Teachers and False Teaching
"Beware of false prophets!" (Matthew 7:15) is the warning and command of our Lord. But how could we "beware" and how could we know they are "false prophets" if we did not judge? And what is the God given standard by which we are to judge? "
Judge the prophecies not the prophet; Judge the teachings not the teacher! To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20). "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew ), Christ said. And in judging the "fruits," we must judge by God's Word, not by what appeals to human reasoning. Many things seem good to human judgment which are false to the Word of God.
OK!And . . .
The Apostle Paul admonished believers, "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple" (Romans -18).
Does this mean that I can avoid you because I have PROVED that you TWIST the Word?!?!
This apostolic command could not be obeyed were it not right to judge. God wants us to know His Word and then test all teachers and teaching by it.
NO, NO, NO, NO! JUST THE TEACHING NOT THE TEACHER!
Notice also that it is the false teachers who make the "divisions," and not those who protest against their false teaching.
Well, having read your unwholesome words on 'Shredding the lies' to Shawn Smith, I have plenty of proof that YOU have caused MANY divisions! Thus, by this standard, YOU must be a false teacher!
And these deceivers are not serving Christ, as they profess, "but their own belly," or their own "bread and butter," as we would put it. We are to "mark them and avoid them."
How can you possibly tell if another person is serving Jesus or not? 1 Corinthians tells me you can't! How can you see into someone else's heart? You can't John!
"Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord" (2 Corinthians , read verses 14-18).
Referring to close personal relationships!
and "From such turn away." (2 Timothy 3:5).
Those who have a different form of godliness (context) - not God's ministers!
"Withdraw yourselves" (2 Thessalonians 3:6).
Brothers who walk ungodly not according to the Apostles' traditional teachings!
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them " (Ephesians 5:1 1).
I don't believe that C-rock is darkness, so this has no bearing on me!
"Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good" (Romans 12:9).
C-rock ain't evil!
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thessalonians ).
I have - C- rock IS good!
It would be impossible to obey these injunctions of God's Word unless it were right to judge! And remember, nothing is "good" in God's sight that is not true to His Word.
The Apostle John wrote, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test, judge]
Proverbs 30:6 says "ADD THOU NOT"! The last time I saw that verse in my KJV it did not have those two words in the brackets!
the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world " ( 1 John 4:1 ) . Again he wrote, "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.... If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 John 7,10-11). This Scripture commands us to judge between those who do, and those who do not bring the true doctrine of Christ.
Whenever a child of God contributes to a denominational budget that supports Modernist (liberal, compromising) missionaries or teachers, he is guilty before God, according to this Scripture, of bidding them, "God speed " in the most effective way possible. And he thereby becomes a "partaker" with them of their "evil deeds" of spreading soul damning poison. How terrible, but how true! Arouse yourself, child of God. If you are guilty, ask God to forgive you and help you never again to be guilty of the blood of souls for whom Christ died. When we are willing to suffer for Christ, we can readily see the truth of God's Word on this tremendously important matter. "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him" (2 Timothy ).
All of this is quite true, and I agree. But given the subject matter is C-rock, I am having a hard time working out the relevancy here!
Misunderstood and Misused Scripture
One of the best known and most misunderstood and misapplied Scriptures is "Judge not" (Matthew 7:1). Let us examine the entire passage:
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5).
Read this again carefully. Notice that it is addressed to a hypocrite!-not to those who sincerely want to discern whether a teacher or teaching is true or false to God's Word. And instead of being a prohibition against honest judgment, it is a solemn warning against hypocritical judgment. In fact, the last statement of this Scripture commands sincere judgment-"Then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." If we take a verse or a part of a verse out of its setting, we can make the Word of God appear to teach the very opposite of what it really does teach. And those who do this cannot escape the judgment of God for twisting His Word (2 Peter ). Let this be a warning to us never again to take a text of Scripture out of its context.
Many who piously quote, "Judge not," out of its context, in order to defend that which is false to God's Word, do not see their own inconsistency in thus judging those who would obey God's Word about judging that which is untrue to the Bible. It is tragic that so much that is anti-Scriptural has undeservedly found shelter behind a misuse of the Scripture just quoted. The reason the professed church of Christ is today honeycombed and paralyzed by satanic Modernism is because Christians have not obeyed the commands of God's Word to judge and put away and separate from false teachers and false teaching when they first appeared in their midst. Physical health is maintained by separation from disease germs. Spiritual health is maintained by separation from germs of false doctrine. The greatest peril of our day is not too much judging, but too little judging of spiritual falsehood.
God wants His children to be like the noble Bereans who "searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so"(Acts ).
Romans 2:1-3 is also addressed to the religious hypocrite who condemned himself because he was guilty of the same things for which he condemned others. James 4:11-12 refers to an evil spirit of backbiting and fault finding, not to judging whether teachers or teachings agree or disagree with God's Word. The Bible never contradicts itself. To understand one portion of Scripture we must view it in the light of all Scripture. "No prophecy of the Scripture is of any private [isolated] interpretation" (2 Peter ). "Comparing spiritual things [words] with spiritual" (1 Corinthians ).
The "Wheat and Tares" parable of Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43, is much misunderstood. First of all, our Lord is talking about the world, not His Church-"the field is the world." He goes on to say that "the good seed are the children of the Kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one" (Matthew ) . They are the two groups in the world; children of God-those who have received Christ (John ), and the children of the devil-those who reject Christ (John ). When any of the "children of the wicked one" get into the professed church of Christ, as they have always done, a definite procedure for God's children is set forth in His Word. First, it is their duty to tell them that they have "neither part nor lot" in Christ (see Acts -23 and context).
If the children of the devil do not leave voluntarily, as is generally the case, God's children are commanded to "purge out" (1 Corinthians 5:7) these unbelievers. But God's people have disobeyed His Word about this, and so unbelievers [and disobedient brethren- 2 Thessalonians 3:6,14-15] have gotten into control, as is now the case in most denominations. Therefore, those who purpose to be true to Christ and His Word are commanded to "come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord" (2 Corinthians )
Ummmm, remember I pulled you up about this verse earlier!
, regardless of property or any other considerations. When we obey God's Word, we can trust Him to take care of all the consequences of our obedience. ---end quote----
I agree essentially with the truths contained in this last portion of the essay, so how did he get to such a horribly convoluted conclusion? Only God knows!